Wesley. No snipes.
Jan. 23rd, 2011 01:55 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
captainsblogDo all the good you can,
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.
That fairly famous quotation is from John Wesley, the founder of the Anglican offshoot known as Methodism. It appears (with perhaps slightly different verbiage) on the wall at the back of our sanctuary- the better to see it on our way out. I mention it because I was mindful, while we were there today, of the conversation started yesterday by our favorite churchgoing atheist,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
bill_sheehan, who began his post quoting something that Eleanor had recently said here:
I honestly feel "God" is the summation of all the good intentions in this world. God is charity, kindness towards others, making an effort when you'd really rather sit on your ass. God is a sense of wonder, to borrow the title of a book by Rachel Carson, at all the incredible variety in the natural world. God is much more, but that's a good start.
Bill then riffed on this by noting how heretical that sentiment would be to some faiths, but certainly not to ours, much less to his lack of an official one:
This, of course, is rank heresy to fundamentalist doctrinaire Christianity, but it’s wonderfully commonplace in many mainstream Protestant churches, particularly the urban ones. If I were to go to my local Episcopal, Congregational, or Methodist churches and ask the minister (a gay man and two women, respectively) if belief in Jesus was the only way in which I could be saved, I would lay very long odds that their answers would be, “Well, it’s certainly my way, but I wouldn’t presume to claim sole possession.”
If anything, we (especially I) might be one step further away from the center of the Straight and Narrow Line leading to eternity. I frankly hesitate to bring some of our church friends completely within the world accurately and sometimes bluntly depicted in these words or on Facebook. I suffer no sacred cows, religious or otherwise. I say "fuck" from time to time. I enjoy my share (perhaps more than my share) of evening adult beverages. I find Kevin Smith's Dogma to be one of the most profoundly spiritual statements of the past century, even while laughing my fool head off watching the shit demon.
And I find certain ironies in things when encountering the more sheltered of my shared faith. Like the woman, mentioned here previously, whose initials "WTF" are proudly monogrammed on her shoulder bag and to whom I couldn't begin to explain why that might not be the best idea. Or seeing, today, the copies of our conference newsletter on the counter in the church office.
Being a dying mainstream denomination in at least the Northeast, we just merged several "conferences" (the Methodist more-or-less equivalent of Catholic dioceses, each headed, like theirs, by a Bishop) into a bigass one now centered in Syracuse. Much agitas went into the merger over the past several years, including which prior conferences' people, and places, and preferences would be retained versus cast off. Apparently the newsletter was one of these. I forget what ours used to be called, but the official monthly periodical of the United Methodist Church in upstate New York is now called The Advocate.
Did these luminaries even know they were choosing the name of a GLBT publication as old and honored in gay history as the Stonewall riots? I'd like to think they did, and it was a sort of homage, but I tend to doubt it. I just know I'll be pretty pissed if they change it, because I can think of no other reason why they would.
In the meantime, we will continue doing all the good we can, whether by testimony or tie-wraps. And if any of the blue-hairs don't approve of how we say and do it, they can take Woody Allen's advice from the last line of The Front.
By all the means you can,
In all the ways you can,
In all the places you can,
At all the times you can,
To all the people you can,
As long as ever you can.
That fairly famous quotation is from John Wesley, the founder of the Anglican offshoot known as Methodism. It appears (with perhaps slightly different verbiage) on the wall at the back of our sanctuary- the better to see it on our way out. I mention it because I was mindful, while we were there today, of the conversation started yesterday by our favorite churchgoing atheist,
bill_sheehan, who began his post quoting something that Eleanor had recently said here:I honestly feel "God" is the summation of all the good intentions in this world. God is charity, kindness towards others, making an effort when you'd really rather sit on your ass. God is a sense of wonder, to borrow the title of a book by Rachel Carson, at all the incredible variety in the natural world. God is much more, but that's a good start.
Bill then riffed on this by noting how heretical that sentiment would be to some faiths, but certainly not to ours, much less to his lack of an official one:
This, of course, is rank heresy to fundamentalist doctrinaire Christianity, but it’s wonderfully commonplace in many mainstream Protestant churches, particularly the urban ones. If I were to go to my local Episcopal, Congregational, or Methodist churches and ask the minister (a gay man and two women, respectively) if belief in Jesus was the only way in which I could be saved, I would lay very long odds that their answers would be, “Well, it’s certainly my way, but I wouldn’t presume to claim sole possession.”
If anything, we (especially I) might be one step further away from the center of the Straight and Narrow Line leading to eternity. I frankly hesitate to bring some of our church friends completely within the world accurately and sometimes bluntly depicted in these words or on Facebook. I suffer no sacred cows, religious or otherwise. I say "fuck" from time to time. I enjoy my share (perhaps more than my share) of evening adult beverages. I find Kevin Smith's Dogma to be one of the most profoundly spiritual statements of the past century, even while laughing my fool head off watching the shit demon.
And I find certain ironies in things when encountering the more sheltered of my shared faith. Like the woman, mentioned here previously, whose initials "WTF" are proudly monogrammed on her shoulder bag and to whom I couldn't begin to explain why that might not be the best idea. Or seeing, today, the copies of our conference newsletter on the counter in the church office.
Being a dying mainstream denomination in at least the Northeast, we just merged several "conferences" (the Methodist more-or-less equivalent of Catholic dioceses, each headed, like theirs, by a Bishop) into a bigass one now centered in Syracuse. Much agitas went into the merger over the past several years, including which prior conferences' people, and places, and preferences would be retained versus cast off. Apparently the newsletter was one of these. I forget what ours used to be called, but the official monthly periodical of the United Methodist Church in upstate New York is now called The Advocate.
Did these luminaries even know they were choosing the name of a GLBT publication as old and honored in gay history as the Stonewall riots? I'd like to think they did, and it was a sort of homage, but I tend to doubt it. I just know I'll be pretty pissed if they change it, because I can think of no other reason why they would.
In the meantime, we will continue doing all the good we can, whether by testimony or tie-wraps. And if any of the blue-hairs don't approve of how we say and do it, they can take Woody Allen's advice from the last line of The Front.
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no subject
Date: 2011-01-24 09:56 am (UTC)We can't avoid doing harm here and there as we pass through life, I've come to realize; part of our life's journey has got to be to do enough good for those around us (defined widely, not narrowly) to overcome that, and to leave the world a better place for those yet to come.
And every time someone is cast out or denied or marginalized, that's another bit of harm that the one sitting in judgment has to overcome.
It's heartening to see that there are inclusive churches somewhere in the world.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-25 12:26 am (UTC)Love The Advocate!
There was a gay minister who I used to help at the soup kitchen of a big Methodist church in Boston back in the late 70's. After dinner, he'd hold a worship service up in the sanctuary for anyone who wanted to attend. There was a delightful little old lady parishioner who someones came just because the church was open. One day, she clutched my arm and tugged me down to her level. "Are you Pastor Bob's special friend?" she asked conspiratorially. I had to disappoint her by saying that, while we were friends, we weren't special friends.
Every church has a matchmaker, I guess.
no subject
Date: 2011-01-25 12:49 am (UTC)